Curse

Red Sonya · Nov 30, 2008, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I would agree with you if it was only the metagame that changed. The ENTIRE game changed.

Are you serious? Why even have elite areas at all if everybody and their mother can do them? Why not just call every area in the game a scrub area and have no challenges in the game whatsoever? That's called bad game design in every sense of the word.

Ummmmm every RPG I've ever played has been made this way. In fact more people get to enjoy the WHOLE game than a handful of elites who can play 24/7 It's bad game design to actually make areas that EVERYONE CAN'T get to. I never played a Diablo, Neverwinter Nights, Daggerfall, Oblivion, Morrowind and the list goes on an on that I couldn't get ot ALL areas of the game. So nope you are wrong in the statement that making ALL areas excessible to EVERYONE is BAD GAME DESIGN. In fact GREAT game design is allowing everyone to be able to get to everywhere and get a piece of the elite materials without having to jump through hoops or being a member of some elite guilds to do it.

HawkofStorms · Nov 30, 2008, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

Ummmmm every RPG I've ever played has been made this way. In fact more people get to enjoy the WHOLE game than a handful of elites who can play 24/7 It's bad game design to actually make areas that EVERYONE CAN'T get to. I never played a Diablo, Neverwinter Nights, Daggerfall, Oblivion, Morrowind and the list goes on an on that I couldn't get ot ALL areas of the game. So nope you are wrong in the statement that making ALL areas excessible to EVERYONE is BAD GAME DESIGN. In fact GREAT game design is allowing everyone to be able to get to everywhere and get a piece of the elite materials without having to jump through hoops or being a member of some elite guilds to do it.

Its not about "accessability." Every bad player can eventually reach DoA (after all, that is how they got into those Ursan groups in the first place). That doesn't mean however that they should be able to breeze through those areas with little to know knowledge of basic game mechanics. Having access to them and being able to complete them are two different stories.

When you got to those areas in Neverwinter Nights, etc, you knew what you were doing and were, by definition, a "good player."

Tyla · Nov 30, 2008, 11:32 PM // 23:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

Once again another who prattles on like he's someone of worth to me or anyone else who feels the same. The game is about "entertainment" for the self, the soul individual it is not about being dictated to about how to play or what to build. It is you who need to realize you can't make me or anyone else and you aren't my boss or the boss of anyone else in the game and it is you who are wah wah wahing because you can't.
The lesson for you is the world doesn't revolve around being a good player or playing like someone else plays. The world revolves around "self" first and foremost. Just as you try to dictate what others should do because YOU THINK SO you prove my point you are now being the selfish and self righteous one and standing up on a soap box thinking you represent some sort of government within the game. Once again I go hahahahahahah for people of that nature.

I believe this has already been said once, but if you feel that way just play a single-player game.

DreamWind · Nov 30, 2008, 11:56 PM // 23:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cale Roughstar

Yes, I agree the style of play has changed, but I simply do not accept the idea that the game has changed so much that the former #1's cannot even break the top400 because of the change.

I'm just saying I'm not convinced....I really think the game has changed that much.

There is also another factor. I haven't played serious GvG for quite a while, and yet I know players who still play today who say the competition is generally EASIER! I know former t300 guilds who are now t100. I remember I left my guild idle for a year and it remained on the ladder the entire year. The lower levels of the game are still extremely low.

So if players did learn, it is all at the very top levels who have been playing all along, and it has been counteracted by many good guilds also leaving. The ladder in general I don't believe has gotten overall better even if the players have.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cale Roughstar

To continue with your basketball example, 396 players have been used in the NBA so far this season (including players with only one or two games). To use your example of Wilt Chamberlain, Wilt would not even be in the NBA at all, if he had the same fall in skill (to 459th) that EvIL has had. I think it is fair to say that Wilt was a little better than that

.

The question is, would Wilt even be playing today, and if so would he be anything more than mediocre? The rules back then let him get away with almost anything, and outside shooters were far less important than having a big massive guy in the center who could push people out of his way and score 100 points.

Now lets say Wilt was reduced from #1 guy in the league to #30. Does that mean there are 29 guys better than him, or just that the game has changed and he isn't as dominant anymore because of it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cale Roughstar

I can see how the game has changed dramatically, but it is still the same game. The little things that make a player great are all the same. Any three year vet has been able to adapt to the new skills, classes and rule changes, so why should it be so far outside the grasp of those who were once the best?

Low motivation? This game used to be a top tier competitive game worth them putting 8+ hours a day in to...now its not much more than something fun to do as you are only playing for in-game crap. Probably the same reason War Machine and a bunch of other former great guilds don't play anymore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

Ummmmm every RPG I've ever played has been made this way. In fact more people get to enjoy the WHOLE game than a handful of elites who can play 24/7 It's bad game design to actually make areas that EVERYONE CAN'T get to. I never played a Diablo, Neverwinter Nights, Daggerfall, Oblivion, Morrowind and the list goes on an on that I couldn't get ot ALL areas of the game. So nope you are wrong in the statement that making ALL areas excessible to EVERYONE is BAD GAME DESIGN. In fact GREAT game design is allowing everyone to be able to get to everywhere and get a piece of the elite materials without having to jump through hoops or being a member of some elite guilds to do it.

LoL

Burst Cancel · Dec 01, 2008, 12:58 AM // 00:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

Once again another who prattles on like he's someone of worth to me or anyone else who feels the same. The game is about "entertainment" for the self, the soul individual it is not about being dictated to about how to play or what to build. It is you who need to realize you can't make me or anyone else and you aren't my boss or the boss of anyone else in the game and it is you who are wah wah wahing because you can't.
The lesson for you is the world doesn't revolve around being a good player or playing like someone else plays. The world revolves around "self" first and foremost. Just as you try to dictate what others should do because YOU THINK SO you prove my point you are now being the selfish and self righteous one and standing up on a soap box thinking you represent some sort of government within the game. Once again I go hahahahahahah for people of that nature.

Thanks for proving my point.

You and your kind bristle angrily at the possibility that people are "dictating" how you play. You're so desperately afraid of other people telling you what to do that you've completely missed the point of my post. I hope you're a teenager that eventually grows out of the "fight the Man" phase, but if not, well, there are far too many of your ilk in the adult world already, so I can't say I'm surprised.

As I said before, the problem is exactly that far too many people, far too often, ask themselves, "why should I give a shit?" You've all decided that because nobody can hold a hammer over your head and force you to do something, you're just not going to do it at all. This isn't about other people dictating what you do. This is about having enough self-respect to recognize that you have deficiencies, rather than wallowing in willful ignorance. If it really doesn't bother you that you have no aptitude in an activity that you spend significant time on, then I honestly feel sorry for you.

And don't think to lecture me about what the world revolves around; you don't know anything about me. Nobody is telling you to take on GW as a second job, and it doesn't take 10 hours a day to not be an idiot. In point of fact, most of the terrible players aren't terrible because they haven't played enough - they're terrible because they don't give a shit, and they have some kind of inexplicable aversion to using their brain in a leisure activity. Students that spend the same time in class come out with radically different grades - why? The difference isn't time investment, it's how they use that time. Similarly, you can play GW with all of the mental activity of a dog drooling over the keyboard, or you can actually use your head.

Nobody is telling you what to do - in reality, nobody cares enough to bother. But ask yourself: are you so lacking in self-respect that you can be content with mediocrity?

Skyy High · Dec 01, 2008, 01:59 AM // 01:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

Ummmmm every RPG I've ever played has been made this way. In fact more people get to enjoy the WHOLE game than a handful of elites who can play 24/7 It's bad game design to actually make areas that EVERYONE CAN'T get to. I never played a Diablo, Neverwinter Nights, Daggerfall, Oblivion, Morrowind and the list goes on an on that I couldn't get ot ALL areas of the game. So nope you are wrong in the statement that making ALL areas excessible to EVERYONE is BAD GAME DESIGN. In fact GREAT game design is allowing everyone to be able to get to everywhere and get a piece of the elite materials without having to jump through hoops or being a member of some elite guilds to do it.

That is pure BS. Just off the top of my head, FFX was a single-player RPG with a main storyline that was easily completable for everyone, and a ton of side content and dungeons that required intense grind and/or player skill to access and defeat. It's an RPG staple to include the hardest content and the phattest l00t in an out-of-the-way area so that most players can get the satisfaction of beating the game, but the players who want to can feel "elite" as well if they put the effort in.

No one can dictate what you play...but we certainly are within our rights to choose to not play with you if you choose to play poorly in a team game. So keep on raging about not being able to do elite content, or play in high level PvP, or whatever game mode you think is dominated by "elitists" who are trying to dictate your playstyle. People have as much of a right to want to play to win as you have a right to play to fail, but you certainly have zero right to "dictate" what builds other players must accept in their groups. Choice is a b**** like that.

Also, CAPITALIZING every OTHER word DOES not MAKE your POINT any BETTER.

*lemming* · Dec 01, 2008, 02:57 AM // 02:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

Ummmmm every RPG I've ever played has been made this way. In fact more people get to enjoy the WHOLE game than a handful of elites who can play 24/7 It's bad game design to actually make areas that EVERYONE CAN'T get to. I never played a Diablo, Neverwinter Nights, Daggerfall, Oblivion, Morrowind and the list goes on an on that I couldn't get ot ALL areas of the game. So nope you are wrong in the statement that making ALL areas excessible to EVERYONE is BAD GAME DESIGN. In fact GREAT game design is allowing everyone to be able to get to everywhere and get a piece of the elite materials without having to jump through hoops or being a member of some elite guilds to do it.

It's a good thing you don't play WoW; less than two percent of players have finished Sunwell Plateau, the last raid instance in The Burning Crusade. And that's after a balance patch just before Wrath of the Lich King release that made the entire raid significantly easier.

There's going to be elite content in any game; it's just less of an issue in WoW because there's a progression of high-end content.

Red Sonya · Dec 01, 2008, 03:07 AM // 03:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

I believe this has already been said once, but if you feel that way just play a single-player game.

And I believe I said this once before as well. You don't dictate what I do. I'll play any game any way I want to within the EULA as I paid to play it that way. And nowhere in the EULA does it say I have to play like YOU do or anythone else. It comes down to you learning to leave people alone and don't TRY to dictate how they play or what they do because YOU can't change a damn thing about it or them. So, you just prattle on as I said. At least I DO DO something I DO WHAT I WANT WITHIN THE GAME and you nor anyone else can stop me or anyone else who plays this way.

You're little wah wah threads don't do anything to change the way people are playing the game. I think you all just like to wah wah to hear yourself wah wah and think most people really give a damn, but, we don't so go on with your prattling if that is what ENTERTAINS you here.

Quote:

No one can dictate what you play...but we certainly are within our rights to choose to not play with you if you choose to play poorly in a team game.

Oh really tell me how you do this in RA, FA, and JQ?? Cmon tell me? Since these are ALL RANDOM POTLUCK and YOU don't get to choose your team bud. lol Better read what the subject matter is about before you make foolish comments as you did above.

Now of course you can QUIT these battles, but, it will be YOU who gets DISHONOR if/when you do not me bud.

Quote:

Also, CAPITALIZING every OTHER word DOES not MAKE your POINT any BETTER.

It's not to make my point any better it is to make people like YOU take NOTICE which you did so it worked just as I expected it to.

Quote:

but if not, well, there are far too many of your ilk in the adult world already, so I can't say I'm surprised.

Thanks for proving my point that dictators and those who look DOWN on others exist out there in the real world as well. I hope you are 14 years old as well and may grow out of this, but, chances are you reached adulthood with your attitude and thus would be very hard to change your habits.

Quote:

This is about having enough self-respect to recognize that you have deficiencies, rather than wallowing in willful ignorance.

Statements like these are most hilarious look how some people get over a GAME!! This guy literally takes playing well in a GAME as SERIOUS BUSINESS OF LIFE. Well bud you really better grow up and start to ENJOY things for what they are not for what you WILL them to be or would like to DICTATE them to be. hahahah You have to be the joke of the thread with that attitude. It's a GAME for goodness sakes. Do you take Monopoly so seriously as well? I bet you do I bet you scream the loudest if someone sells Boardwalk for $100 or trades it for Baltic Avenue?? do you? I bet you do.

Tyla · Dec 01, 2008, 08:42 AM // 08:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

I think you all just like to wah wah to hear yourself wah wah and think most people really give a damn, but, we don't so go on with your prattling if that is what ENTERTAINS you here.

If you don't give a damn why are you responding at all?

Also, don't capitalise to emphasise, bold.

[DE] · Dec 01, 2008, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

And I believe I said this once before as well. You don't dictate what I do. I'll play any game any way I want to within the EULA as I paid to play it that way. And nowhere in the EULA does it say I have to play like YOU do or anythone else. It comes down to you learning to leave people alone and don't TRY to dictate how they play or what they do because YOU can't change a damn thing about it or them. So, you just prattle on as I said. At least I DO DO something I DO WHAT I WANT WITHIN THE GAME and you nor anyone else can stop me or anyone else who plays this way.

You're little wah wah threads don't do anything to change the way people are playing the game. I think you all just like to wah wah to hear yourself wah wah and think most people really give a damn, but, we don't so go on with your prattling if that is what ENTERTAINS you here.

You need to stick to PvE or American districts of RA. For the LOVE OF GOD. Also I can CAPITALIZE random words AS well. It is very FUN.

Quote:

Oh really tell me how you do this in RA, FA, and JQ?? Cmon tell me? Since these are ALL RANDOM POTLUCK and YOU don't get to choose your team bud. lol Better read what the subject matter is about before you make foolish comments as you did above.

Now of course you can QUIT these battles, but, it will be YOU who gets DISHONOR if/when you do not me bud.

Or I'll just stand there with my 2 other mediocre teammates and tell you how mentally handicapped you are. Not to mention I have the option of leaving twice before I end up dishonored on the third. If you were, for some strange reason, on my team for 3 times within an hour I wouldn't mind getting dishonored. Not playing is better than losing thanks to a dick.

Quote:

It's not to make my point any better it is to make people like YOU take NOTICE which you did so it worked just as I expected it to.

It's ANNOYING and makes you LOOK like a FIVE year OLD who JUST discovered the INTERNET!

Quote:

Thanks for proving my point that dictators and those who look DOWN on others exist out there in the real world as well. I hope you are 14 years old as well and may grow out of this, but, chances are you reached adulthood with your attitude and thus would be very hard to change your habits.

There's a difference between looking down on people because you believe you are superior and looking down on people because they really are dumb.

Quote:

Statements like these are most hilarious look how some people get over a GAME!! This guy literally takes playing well in a GAME as SERIOUS BUSINESS OF LIFE. Well bud you really better grow up and start to ENJOY things for what they are not for what you WILL them to be or would like to DICTATE them to be. hahahah You have to be the joke of the thread with that attitude. It's a GAME for goodness sakes. Do you take Monopoly so seriously as well? I bet you do I bet you scream the loudest if someone sells Boardwalk for $100 or trades it for Baltic Avenue?? do you? I bet you do.

Erm.... news flash, you've been the joke of the thread for the past few pages.

When I play Guild Wars, more specifically PvP, I expect some level of competence from the other players entering. You said since you bought the game you should be able to choose whatever the fck you wanna do. I say since I bought the game that my PvP experience shouldn't be ruined by PvE'rs who want to run around with flarespam warriors. I'm at a loss to understand how you find that fun at all. Winning is fun. Outsmarting your opponent is fun. Facing teams of equal skill level is fun. Facing teams of better skill level is fun. But do I handicap not only myself, but my team so that I can face better teams? No.

Can you dig it?

Theus · Dec 01, 2008, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Why did player skill drop?

All the good players jumped ship a long time ago.

romeus petrus · Dec 01, 2008, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

. So nope you are wrong in the statement that making ALL areas excessible to EVERYONE is BAD GAME DESIGN. In fact GREAT game design is allowing everyone to be able to get to everywhere and get a piece of the elite materials without having to jump through hoops or being a member of some elite guilds to do it.

I have to disagree, if everyone and their dog can do all areas by definition that strips elite areas of their status.

Trub · Dec 01, 2008, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by [DE]

When I play Guild Wars, more specifically PvP, I expect some level of competence from the other players entering. You said since you bought the game you should be able to choose whatever the fck you wanna do. I say since I bought the game that my PvP experience shouldn't be ruined by PvE'rs who want to run around with flarespam warriors. I'm at a loss to understand how you find that fun at all. Winning is fun. Outsmarting your opponent is fun. Facing teams of equal skill level is fun. Facing teams of better skill level is fun. But do I handicap not only myself, but my team so that I can face better teams? No.

Can you dig it?

DE more or less summed it up right there Red Sonya.
Why would any GW player with a hint of decent skill and competiveness want to take the time with the likes of anyone that demands to have access to everything just because they paid for the game?
The 'oldies' are for the most part willing to share their wisdom when asked, but you cannot expect, nor demand it.
One has to splash around in the kiddie pool before hitting the high dive, dontchaknow.
__________________
And a Wallow shall lead them.

Cobalt · Dec 01, 2008, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

You two (cobalt and byteme!) honestly don't see the problem with having every area completable by the 'average player'? Including elite areas?

I think the rule of thumb should have been if developers could not complete an area with an H&H team or random pug team then nerf it until they themselves can. That would have given any player a viable shot at seeing and completing all the games content.

Or should have made available, once you win the game some obtainable higher level armor and weapons to aid in the completion of the much harder content. Perhaps only usable in HM to prevent it from being abused in NM. Something similar to what happens in WoW the harder the areas you progress to better the weapons and armor you can obtain to aid your progression.

Instead what they have done is created a wall in which most can not pass and not through lack of skill either. Thus the majority of the player base will never see all the games content. Whats the point in wasting time, effort and man power developing content most will never enjoy?

jaximus · Dec 02, 2008, 03:47 AM // 03:47

player skill hasnt fallen. its about the same. the good guilds from back in the day, the supremely dominant ones had a full team of competent players that knew their role and executed to perfection. tactics played a role, teamwork was huge. teams have that today. its a changing game. past players knew the game in and out and performed. current players do also. the skill sets were smaller, there was more balance. less than stellar players couldnt lean on skills that let them perform well in difficult situations. powercreep filled the gap of good/bad.

however, there are a lot of sub par players in the game today. the attitude is the issue here. they choose to fall back on the EULA saying they can do whatever they want. problem is, and quote this if you like, when you give people choices, stupid happens. people can choose to be bad and not listen, they choose to rely on skills that exploit a mechanic. they choose to do the easiest thing to get their gold and items fastest. they dont want to learn the game, they want to learn how to most efficiently bypass the game mechanics to cheat the system.

sometimes though, there are times i wish i didnt care so much about winning. i care too much. i never do anything without intent to be the best i can. there are times i wish i could just get rolled over and over and not let it eat away at me. so i work harder, learn more, and come back more prepared only to see the players around me regressed.

Cale Roughstar · Dec 02, 2008, 03:58 AM // 03:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobalt

I think the rule of thumb should have been if developers could not complete an area with an H&H team or random pug team then nerf it until they themselves can. That would have given any player a viable shot at seeing and completing all the games content.

What is the point of elite content if anyone can do it with ease? The whole point is that it is elite, and therefore takes (some) brains/skill/coordination.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobalt

Instead what they have done is created a wall in which most can not pass and not through lack of skill either. Thus the majority of the player base will never see all the games content. Whats the point in wasting time, effort and man power developing content most will never enjoy?

To give you something to aspire to.

joshuarodger · Dec 02, 2008, 04:32 AM // 04:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

Oh really tell me how you do this in RA, FA, and JQ?? Cmon tell me? Since these are ALL RANDOM POTLUCK and YOU don't get to choose your team bud. lol Better read what the subject matter is about before you make foolish comments as you did above.

Now of course you can QUIT these battles, but, it will be YOU who gets DISHONOR if/when you do not me bud.

well you only have to win RA 5 times in a row to never have to do it again, and that's if you didn't buy the unlock pack. FA and JQ are not mandatory for any part of any game. so, in order to not have to go "pot luck" you just don't RA, FA, or JQ, you GvG, TA, or HA. maybe you should read up on your subject matter before making foolish comments.

Age · Dec 02, 2008, 08:32 AM // 08:32

Could it be this not mine by the way although I admire the person who did this.Don't ask me why.

daze · Dec 02, 2008, 08:40 AM // 08:40

THis is why player skill has dropped significantly

stupid people are breeding faster than they are dying..
Darwinism is not keeping up.

Metalmaster · Dec 02, 2008, 09:19 AM // 09:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobalt

I think the rule of thumb should have been if developers could not complete an area with an H&H team or random pug team then nerf it until they themselves can. That would have given any player a viable shot at seeing and completing all the games content.

That's a very strange point. Do you really believe developers are better players than community? If so you are wrong, working in game-dev company i can say it for sure.